Title - One can't afford to be populist if you want railways to keep moving'

Shekhar Gupta

In this Walk the Talk on NDTV 24x7, Railways Minister Pawan Kumar Bansal speaks to The Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Shekhar Gupta on the hike in rail fares, the proposed tariff authority and the 'politicisation' of the ministry
My guest today is somebody who has the toughest job in 21st century India and, I must say, in 2013, the most exciting-Railway Minister Pawan Kumar Bansal. So tell me, is it the toughest job or the most exciting job?

Well, I won't call it the toughest. It is exciting alright, because for many years, there were things pending in the railways and people's expectations have risen over the years. This is one department that touches the life of every Indian and therefore, there is a lot to be done. You have got to be really aspirational in your approach and our task should be for the new generation-as you said, for the 21st century.

You say it should be aspirational. But, over the years, or say, over the last decade-and-a-half, it's become minimalistic-jo gaadiyan hain woh chalti rahein, chaar-paanch ghante se zyada late na ho, the fares should remain the same and toilets should continue to stink...

There is a lot to be done. If we have a vision for the railways, besides the expansion of the network, which is already vast, what is necessary is that it should be hassle-free travel for the people. The trains, coaches, stations, should be clean. We have made an effort in this direction by starting bio-toilets. This is a huge task. We have 51,000 coaches at present and in the next five years, we have to add at least 25,000 more coaches. Our effort is to add bio-toilets, which are designed by the DRDO, in all coaches in the next 10 years. The bio-toilets are same as the ones that are being used (by defence forces) in Siachen. We have to upgrade the stations as well. There are 7,000 railway stations in the country. We have chosen 900. We have completed work on 600 stations. It's minimal, it's not aspirational.

If we confine ourselves for the moment to the passengers, for the poor and the middle-classes, there is no dignity in railway travel-dhakka-mukki, booking problems, delays. And for the upper crust, railways is not an option anymore.

There is also a lot of pressure for our AC-II class. The fares, even after the hike that I announced, are very low compared to the fares of buses.

I know you are a loyal Shatabdi traveller to Chandigarh.

Ever since I have been an MP, at least 90 per cent of my travel to Chandigarh is by Shatabdi. Coming back to your point, I agree with you that the coaches are jam-packed. And for people, particularly in the unreserved segment, it is very difficult. So our constant effort has to be to augment the capacity. But presently, the position is such that the tracks we have can't handle the load. Also, I have to see that we achieve targets on the dedicated freight corridors (DFCs) that have been identified. Two of these are: Ludhiana to Kolkata and Delhi to Mumbai. These two make a distance of 3,338 km and the expense involved would be Rs 95,000 crore. If we stick to time, it will be completed within five years. There is good progress. Once completed, goods trains will have dedicated tracks. At present, both freight carriers and passenger trains use the same track and so the goods trains are put for hours on the sidings, leading to delays.

So are you going to show something in the 2014 Lok Sabha elections, at least a little sample?

We should be able to bring changes in certain things. We can give the direction. That would be my effort, though it's a short period.

But you are not shifting the deadline again?

No. But there are other important things where we have not been able to stick to the time. For instance, at our two locomotive plants-Madhepura and Marora- there are some issues, which we hope to settle immediately.

How immediate? In days?

The first should be by the end of this month. It has to be taken to the Cabinet once again as some amendments have to be made in the earlier decision.

Since most people, including me, don't understand this, and because pink papers don't cover the railways very much-everybody has given up on the railways-tell us a bit more about these two projects.

First, we must not give up on the railways. If it has sufficient investments, it can contribute an additional 1.5 to 2 per cent to the GDP, which means a huge thing. That would also mean we add more job opportunities. Also, we become enablers for the fast movement of traffic. It means people get their goods on time. The turnaround time is about five days for a wagon. It should come down to three days if we have the DFC. Another important thing we need is the first and the last-mile connectivity to the mines and ports. Presently, the mine heads are not connected to the railways. We have the main lines, but the lines to the mines are missing.

And 45 per cent of freight, I believe, is coal, followed by iron ore.

Yes, it's coal. We have worked on five participative models. Two of these are simple PPP models and other three models are innovative ones, in which we bring in private partners. For mines and port operators, they can build their own lines, we will use it for them and give them the discount in freight to ultimately recover the entire amount. Earlier, the stipulations used to be that for the sidings, the party concerned would pay. One could understand it if the sidings were to be 20 km or so. If the sidings have to be 100 km from the main line, then that by itself could mean an investment of Rs 800 crore and if those people have to spend, they possibly can't.

Tell us about those two locomotive projects.

These two locomotive plants would add to our rolling stocks of high horsepower engines.

But the unusual thing is these will not be fully done by the railways. It is PPP.

We should accept that. Unless we go for PPP, we can't really achieve what we have to. I am sure that you are aware of the Sam Pitroda report on modernisation of railways. They have worked on the need for Rs 5,40,000 crore over a period of 10 years. And the Kakodkar committee on safety has worked on the need for another Rs 1 lakh crore. And the Planning Commission has another Rs 2 lakh crore. Ultimately, it reaches more than Rs 8 lakh crore, which is a huge amount. There is no way we can meet it with internal resource generation. Therefore, we have to create a congenial atmosphere so that people may come forward to invest.

So, these two factories will do this?

The first one, Madhepura, is for electric locomotives. And the other one is a diesel locomotive factory.

Increasingly, it will become electric?

We should try to do that. We are likely to have our own captive power plants too. In fact, there is one we are working on and work on the other will start soon. The railways presently spends Rs 21,000 crore on fuel-about Rs 9,000 crore on electricity and the rest on diesel.

And it will go up as the diesel prices go up.

Obviously. If they make a decision that the railways has to be charged at higher rates, then it would again mean a lot of burden and wash out our recent fare hike.

But, tell me something. Are you surprised by how neatly this fare hike has gone through?

I must thank everybody that people have taken it in the right spirit. I think people have been realistic. Because what they really expect of the railways, given the fact that there has been no fare hike in the last 10 years, is commensurate improvement in services, cleanliness and security in the trains. There are difficulties in booking a ticket today. There are people who go under the name of tour operators but are actually touts. They book all the tickets in advance and sell it in the black market. We are trying to put in place a system where it is imperative for everyone to carry their identity cards while travelling. I also got in touch with Mr Nandan Nilekani about bringing in the Aadhaar system.

Basically, use bio-metrics?

Yes, we are working on that. We had only one meeting. But we discussed a few things and we do wish to do that for the railways. To start with, maybe for the payment of salaries; pension is another one. That will help us in a big way. The railways has the potential of being the veritable engine of growth, or inclusive growth, as the Prime Minister wants it to be for the country.

But before that, railways has to cease to be bankrupt.

For the last two years, the railways had a deficit and the operating ratio has gone up to 95. It means, you spend Rs 95 to earn an overall revenue of Rs 100. And then there are other expenses involved. So ultimately, all our funds have been depleted to almost zero level.

Why is railways such a politicised ministry?

I don't know. It shouldn't have been. It's probably because it touches the life of everybody. Every MP wants something or the other in his constituency-something that is tangible and immediately visible to the people. If somebody gets an additional halt for a train, it would be known immediately and the MP can say, 'see, this is what I have done for you'. If you add more coaches to the train, if you are able to extend the train to a particular point, if you are able to start a new service or improve the condition of platforms, the work is visible immediately.

It's also a gravy train. We know that it has been a practice for money to be made even when giving out coolies' badges, cycle parking or car parking contracts.

It is unfortunate and that is a major challenge for us. Why I was saying it was politicised is because here is one sector, one department, where the gestation period of projects may be very long, but you can show the people that you have given them something. And therefore, perhaps, it is considered as a department of giving facilities.

Santa Claus department. Santa Claus brings gifts to you and others also.

We have to change that. We have to see that we are able to do something for the country. Every state, every region must get its due. But there are many places in the hinterland that are not connected to the railways.

It is also rare for somebody from the North to become the Railway Minister.

Yes, after quite some time. The last time, I remember, was Mr Bansi Lal and before that, it was Swaran Singh.

Yes, Bansi Lal briefly and Swaran Singh in very good, decent times when ministers gave things to other people's constituencies and not their own.

One has to look after the entire country though I would also like to do something for my own constituency.

Starting a new Shatabdi to Chandigarh?

Yes, I had been asking for it the last 10 years. So what I had been seeking from other ministers till now, I will fulfill it now.

So, what would you tell Mamata Banerjee if you met her on a train for six hours? What would the conversation be like?

I only hope she doesn't lambast me for increasing the fares.

I believe she set up a railway station that doesn't exist.

Yes, we couldn't find one of the stations. We have to check what she meant. The name that was given to us, it doesn't exist on the map.

What do you tell a great Indian populist about Indian railways-that there is no milk left in the milch cow anymore, now you have to feed it with some grass and fodder?

I know I won't be a populist. It is a difficult task for me. It's the last year of the present government and therefore, there has to be a balance. But one can't afford to be populist any longer with the railways if you want the railways to keep moving. At the same time, you must ensure that besides it being a commercial organisation, it also has a heavy social responsibility.

How much of a priority are the new expressway corridors like Ahmedabad-Mumbai, the new superfast or bullet trains?

There is only one at present-Ahmedabad-Mumbai-though seven such routes have been identified. But one which has been identified for immediate taking up is Ahmedabad-Mumbai. It would be premier-class travel. The other is the elevated corridor in Mumbai, from Churchgate to Virar.

When does the work start on that?

I can't say that, but it is our priority.

As they say with railways, you can keep waiting at the station for ever. But there is always hope that when the train starts, as long as it doesn't stop at the next station.

Punctuality is another priority. There are difficulties during the fog days. We are trying to take safety measures, improve the signaling system. We are also putting in a system where people can track the movement of the train on their mobiles.

Before all this, you need financial viability. So I think, we have to also thank you for getting this train started.

Financial viability is the most important thing. But the railway has a tremendous role to play. People have accepted that without a grudge, especially when compared to buses.

And frankly, it is safer too. It's a good beginning.

I hope so. Since it was after 10 years, now we must ensure that in future there will be a gradual increase. And for that, there is a need to de-politicise the fare structuring. And for that, we have thought of a railway tariff authority.

How much power will you give to that authority?

That's an important question-whether its recommendations will be totally mandatory or whether they will have a great binding effect on our decision making.

Will it be like TRAI?

We are working on it and I suppose by the end of this month, I should be able to take it to the Cabinet.

Because then, the government can say this is the budgetary support and you managed within this.

The budgetary support can't cover all the operations. Ultimately, it has to be internal resource generation.

So when do we see the tariff regulatory authority?

I think in a month's time. Let's see whether there would be a requirement of an Act or not. If a Bill is required, it would take a long time and my effort would be to put it in place without a legislative proposal.

You are a smart lawyer, and your Cabinet is full of many smart lawyers. So they can find a way around it. And I hope you can do it. It will be very tough to get a Bill passed through a Parliament that allows an increase in fare and that takes away the power of the government.

We would not like to circumvent the procedure of Parliament. But if there are provisions where you can do these things-and presently Parliament has given the government the right to revise the fare-so under that provision, if you can set up an authority, there will be nothing wrong in it.

I can tell you something that the PM said at Mr Chidambaram's book release. The PM says the real reformer is a minister who throws away his own power and he said when he was commerce minister in the 1991 government, he finished the power of all the directorates under his own ministry. So if you give away the railway minister's power of playing with fares, I think that would be the biggest reform for the Indian railways.

The first thing I have done is to exercise the power to increase the fare. But we can delegate this function to somebody else.

That will be a real reform. So all the best. It won't be easy through Parliament or not through Parliament. But I think you need luck. If you do it, it will be a contribution.

Thank you very much.